Originally Posted By: Steve C
Originally Posted By: Ken
Originally Posted By: Steve C
Ken, what part of the Wilderness Act are you reading that brings you to
conclude that those people "have not experienced Wilderness"?


"an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man"


Just addressing the first part...

Definition of "untrammeled": not limited or controlled; unrestrained.

I do not understand how unreasonably tight quotas limiting access to wilderness on a trail advances or enhances an area's being "untrammeled by man". Hikers visiting the wilderness are not limiting, controlling, or restraining the landscape, environment, or the habitat. Using that phrase to support keeping people out is ridiculous.

As for "What is a Wilderness Experience", whether a lone hiker visits such an area, or 50 do on the same day, the fact that the only man made effect they see is the trail, then I would say they had a Wilderness Experience. The number of people they met on the trail has nothing to do with that.

It seems more that the phrase is in the Wilderness Act definition to support the idea that no man made improvements or changes be allowed. Of course trails and trail building has some impact, but at least we agree that trails are ok.


Insightful that you would have chosen that phrase to discuss, Steve.

There is probably no discussion that occurs more frequently over anything in wilderness than that word: untrammeled.

Perhaps more on that.

You appear to think, Steve, that backpackers, in large numbers, have no impact. Sadly, that is not so.

I take the example of Humphrey's Basin. As you know, this is a very desolate, tree-free (for the most part) moonscape, huge in volume. 5 years ago, they sent up a group of rangers to go though the basin, and clean and restore it. They dismantled over 800 "constructed" campsites, and returned them to pristene condition.

I did not know, until last week, that SEKI employs 2 full time people, who do nothing but climb the eastern passes, and restore campsite areas over the crest. It takes them all summer to go over each pass, and clean up the messes that've been left.

I can easily tell the places that get camped at a lot: I look up. What I see are ropes hanging from tree branches where bear-bagging has failed, over and over again.