first: BTW, I am enjoying this discussion...

Originally Posted By: Ken
People who experience the hordes of Whitney and Half-Dome, have not experienced Wilderness, no matter what label is slapped on the map

Ken, what part of the Wilderness Act are you reading that brings you to conclude that those people "have not experienced Wilderness"?

Is the fact that these people are sharing their experience with others (your loosely used term "hordes") make it not wilderness? Looking up some definitions for wilderness, few mention the absence of people. One phrase, "uninhabited or inhabited only by wild animals" means that humans don't live there. But what about camping overnight in tents, or not in tents? I suppose we could debate that, too.

Regardless of what others think, I can say that I don't mind camping a night or two with lots of people in a place as beautiful and stark and expansive as Trail Camp. It is STILL wilderness, even though others are camping around me. I am still out there without anything except what I can carry in on my back, at the mercy of the elements, far from any amenities, far from the safety and security of a roof over my head, impossible to stay there for more than a few days.

I would be curious what the result might be if one were to canvass campers at Trail Camp regarding their views of being there with so many others, as it relates to the place also being wilderness.

I really don't think sharing Mt Whitney, or Half Dome, with "hordes" results in such an outing being called a non-wilderness experience. ...In fact, for Bee's "poor, 'maligned' flip-flop crowd" it IS the closest thing to a wilderness experience they will ever try, while for her "seasoned back-country curmudgeon", it ain't. Statistically, that's something like 100 x wilderness experience, minus 1 for "it ain't". Doing the math, that's a +99.


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I haven't even touched the phrase from the Wilderness Act, "outstanding opportunities for solitude", but I sure plan to. I think that is the main place where I really and truly disagree with tight trail quotas and the gatekeepers who make them.

And by the way, I don't mind being called the butt of a little joke. I hope to explain how I think it is your 100 wilderness rangers who "don't get it."