Mt Whitney Zone Forums General Discussion Are you camping at Trail Camp on July 7 and 8?

I know this is a long shot! I "lost" in the lottery but managed recently to pick up 2 camping permits for Trail Camp on July 7 and 8, coming down July 9 and there are 3 in my party. If you have a camping permit on the mountain for those 2 nights do you have an empty spot on your permit that my friend can fill and then legally be on the mountain with us? Otherwise, she will not be able to summit this year. Please help if you can. Thanks, Sara

There are no camping permit for anywhere on the mountain. You either have an overnight or day permit reservation. To overnight on the mountain, you need the former. A day hike permit is just that, a permit that allows you legally to be on the mountain from 12:01 AM to 12:00 PM.

Sara K, your friend should prepare and go on your trip. July 7 is a Tuesday, a good day to pick up unused permits.

If nobody here offers an open slot, here is what you should do:
Keep watching the recreation.gov site (here's a link for your week). Bookmark it and check every day. Especially in the last two weeks before your trip, a few slots may show up since a few really nice people will log in and drop their unneeded reservations.

If that doesn't work:
Look at the 2014 unused Whitney permits page. You can see that on the Tuesday after July 4, 13 out of 60 overnight permits went unused. (It's an anomaly that on Wed, there were none. But look at prior years and get the averages.) (By the way, you only need the permit for ONE day -- that one day permit is your permission to stay in the Whitney Zone for up to 2 weeks! The important thing is that you START your hike on the date shown on the permit.)

If you go in on Monday, July 6 and pick up your two reserved permits, it is VERY likely that there will be plenty of others available, from people dropping out of group trips. When the group leader picks up the trip permit, those unused slots become available. The numbers you see on the Unused pages are what is left AFTER people walked in and requested unused slots. You are sure to get one of the slots.

On Tues, July 7, at 11 AM, all the complete no-shows are made available for the July 7 entry date, too. So even more permits will likely come available then.

Thank you Steve. I am checking the reservation site a dozen times per day and will continue to do that. I don't think my friend would drive the 12 hours for the possibility of a permit. That's why I'm trying so hard now and will continue trying until July 5th since we will drive all day on the 6th. I'm confused by what you wrote about one permit permitting my friend to enter in the Whitney Zone for 2 weeks. If we hike from Whitney Portal to Trail Camp and wish to spend 2 nights at Trail Camp and descend on the 9th doesn't my friend need 2 overnight permits? One for the 7th and one for the 8th? That is what I purchased for us. Please help me understand. Sara

You only need one overnight permit per person. A day use permit is for the day of the permit only and does not permit you to camp overnight. Check your reservations carefully. They will say either day-use or overnight. If they are overnight, you only need the permits for the day you are entering. If they are day use, you may not use them to stay overnight.

Oh my, Sara! You are definitely confused. As Saltydog wrote, you need the OVERNIGHT permit to do the Whitney hike and spend the night on the main trail. But each person only needs ONE permit, and you must start hiking on the "Entry Date" -- the date on the permit. Once you are IN on that entry date, you do not need any other permits.

Now, if you actually got reservations for Day Use permits, those are not good to spend a night sleeping along the trail. They will not let people camp on the trail even if they have two consecutive day use permits, either.

So if you have day use permits, you have the wrong permits. If you have overnight permits to enter on different dates, then you have too many. Either way, you need to call the Wilderness Permit Office at 760-873-2483, and talk over your situation. They might be able to help you some, and they will certainly be able to clear up some of the confusion.

Keep checking online, but do understand, the chances of some showing up are better one or two weeks before you hike.

Thanks Steve and Saltydog, I'll call the office. I bought two overnight permits for July 7 and 2 overnight permits for July 8 thinking that is what we needed for 2 people to camp for 2 nights at Trail Camp. I am sure I bought overnight permits because for both dates I entered I had to enter a camping location and I typed "Trail Camp." I'll call the office and try to straighten it out and continue to watch for an overnight permit for my friend to join us. Thanks again for your help.

Steve and Saltydog, You are right. I was very confused. I purchased 2 non-refundable overnight permits for 2 successive nights. The agent at the office explained what the "departure date" meant. He explained that in choosing a departure date I was allowed to stay on the mountain after purchasing the single overnight permit for multiple nights. I thought I had to declare a departure date and still be responsible for having an overnight permit for each night I wanted to camp. I don't think recreation.gov explains that well in the online system. Thanks for helping me. I'm finding it frustrating that I now have double-paid and because my friend isn't listed as an alternate leader (because I didn't know she'd want to) on 7/8 she can't even use those permits. I am by nature a rule follower and law-abider but I am beginning to understand why people risk being on the mountain without proper permits. It is a laborious system, especially for those like me who are old enough to have not been raised with computers or work with them much. So, when I release the July 8th permits I purchased last week recreation.gov will then be able to resell them to their third purchaser this season. That seems like quite a profitable business model. ;-)

Sara, don't turn them back in just yet! I would talk to the Wilderness Permit office again and ask about switching the unneeded permits to the earlier day (IF an open slot shows up). You could ask them whether, when (and if) you spot an opening for July 7, if you called them at that time, if they would help you switch so you had three permits for the earlier day.

I think they might be able to do that for you, or you might even be able to switch online (but I doubt that). Also, due to the crazy mess-up, they might accommodate you and add your third friend as an alternate leader on the unused(later) day permit, so she could in fact have a sure-thing permit.

And, with that sure-thing permit, when you and she show up at the Visitor Center in Lone Pine, they WILL switch you to the earlier date if a slot is available (I keep telling you they will likely have some available.)


By the way, when you talk to the WPO person, please tell him (or her) that neither the rec.gov or Inyo N.F. web pages specifically state that you do NOT need multiple overnight permits to stay multiple nights in the wilderness. It is such a well-known fact by them and all of us regulars, that everyone has fallen into the assumption that "everyone knows that" already. Your experience demonstrates the need for a sentence or two explaining that.

Thanks Steve. I will try again. I talked to two agents and both were only willing to cancel my July 8 reservations and would do nothing about adding my friend. They told me to take it up with the toll-free rec.gov phone agents if I didn't like their answer. That's why I got frustrated. I will try again. Thanks for the encouragement.

Steve, I think your message helped. The person I spoke to said the supervisor Cindy will call me tomorrow and tell me what she can do to accommodate me since the websites don't specifically spell out the terms. (I made the assumption that they don't care that their website misleads, which may have been wrong on my part. I hope so.) Thank you so much! I'll let you know what Cindy says tomorrow. Sara

Sara, Cindy cares! She's the one who passes along the unused permits numbers, and I have spoken to her via email and phone many times over the years. She works hard to keep both rec.gov and the Inyo website info up-to-date and correct. You know all those derogatory things people say about government workers? ...They are wrong, and she's "Exhibit A".

And btw, you can tell her I said hi.

Ok, so I've been lurking for some time and finally had to sign up to jump in on this. As a local of Bishop, I know the people who work in the permit office and as Steve C said, they care and do their best. To assume otherwise is to miss the opportunity these folks can offer in knowledge and assistance. But there are rules and regulations so just remember, they can't always wave a magic wand to solve issues. The Inyo and Rec.gov site may be convoluted at times, but there is a lot of information they are trying to put out and they can't put in bold lettering everything that someone might miss. While it doesn't help now Sara, there are two places I found that indicate a permit is good for the entire trip along with other FAQ and Whitney regulations that may be useful for future dates. Rec.gov defaults to one night out but provides a drop down menu to extend the date. I would also not recommend trying to go up without a permit for your friend, I've stopped and talked with rangers up there, they will check permits even if others say they've managed to avoid them.

Rec.gov Whitney Rules and Regulations

FS FAQ for Whitney Permits

Sara: As you are learning, there is a big difference between rec.gov, which only handles the reservations and the Park, Forest, and BLM folks who actually staff the agency offices and handle the actual permits. As infuriating as the nameless and faceless behind the reservation site can be, the real flesh and blood at the Interagency Visitors Center in particular are almost invariably helpful, knowledgeable and caring.

Thanks everyone for your input. No matter how frustrating the process of understanding and procuring permits I would never go up without a permit. My anxiousness about breaking rules would ruin any fun I could have whether confronted or not. I am a retired government worker from state criminal court in California and I've known as many co-workers who do the minimum required to get by as I have known those who were willing to go the extra mile for people. The two permit office reps I spoke with this morning offered only to cancel the second date without refund and seemed quick to want to end the call, referring me to a rec.gov toll-free number....and I was being very pleasant. When I called back a third time at Steve's urging, repeated my problem for the third time, mentioned this board and read Steve's email (without id'ing him) listing solutions the permit office could possibly offer the answer changed and that is when I was told about Cindy and what she might be able to do. The tone changed as soon as I mentioned this board. It seems to help to be connected to connected people and you all are the connected people! So, I'm happy to be connected to you. In my branch of government there are also more liberal interpretations of rules for the connected. That's not a judgment or a criticism, but just awareness about the way humans operate. We do more readily for those we feel more connected to. Thank you Steve for being my pathway from anonymity to connection. I will say hi to Cindy for you! Thanks again. Whatever Cindy can do or cannot do I will be grateful for her consideration.

I had a nice talk with Cindy. She told me that I didn't accidentally buy too many permits because the system was designed so it would kick-out unnecessary permits from the "shopping cart." So when I bought 2 overnight permits with a departure date several days later the system did not let me buy the unnecessary overnight permits I attempted to buy for the second night on the mountain. That's great! So, now I just need to keep working the website looking for one more cancellation for an overnight permit beginning on July 7 for my friend and I will do that. Cindy was very nice and helpful. Thank you all for helping me navigate these waters. Sara