Mt Whitney Zone Forums General Discussion Death Valley puts brakes on running, cycling races

Hot Creek near Mammoth is an excellent hot spring coming up in the middle of a cold water creek. Made for much fun. You could move closer or back from the hot areas, moderating the temperature. Took my two older kids there years ago. Went back a few years ago to find sheep fence erected along the stream.

Unfortunately, they got someone to declare that the occasional boiling out of gasses was sign of something bad about to occur. Of course it never did. But now Hot Creek is off limits to everyone. Permanently!

The legal issue that occurs is that once they close something, if they then reopen it, there is an implied message that it is safe. Then, when some accident occurs, lawyers can point to that re-opening event as a mistake, and use it for financial gain.

I ran two marathons in Death Valley, they were definitely memorable. It is a really big shame that others will not be able to experience it.

I wish the legal standards here were more like I saw in New Zealand: Lots of adventure available, people take on the risks. If you get hurt or die, well, that's the price of the adventures.

Am I the only contributor on this thread who keeps pointing out that the athletic competitions are being held in a NATIONAL PARK? And that the vast majority of people visiting a NATIONAL PARK have an right to expect a PRISTINE experience? And not have to dodge cyclists in the middle of the road, be unable to use scenic overlooks because they're clogged with aid stations and SAG vehicles? I mean, people plan trips to DV for months, spend thousands of $$ getting there, only to find the place is virtually shutdown due to an athletic competition?

So, if holding these events in DV is OK/legal, then why can't some outfit due base jumping competitions off El Capitan? Or do laps in the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool? Those are in National Parks, so fair's fair.

So, let's cut the crap about the long arm of the government, nanny state, etc, etc. The Park Service has a right to re-evaluate holding athletic competitions in National Parks from time-to-time.

And Steve - I think if you dig a bit deeper into the closure of that part of the creek it's due to increased water temps, and until it returns to safe levels, it will remain closed. Is that unreasonable? There's lots of other hot springs. You just have to know where to look.

I can understand the need to make sure these races/events are held safely in the future, holding promoters responsible and then making sure the signs, people, lights, or whatever else is necessary for safety be in place. But, this is a larger problem, and it's called personal responsibility and lawsuits. The Park service can't afford the type of lawsuit that happened in the California 200, where the plaintiffs sued the Bureau of Land Management, settling for 5.8 Million dollars from both BLM and the organizer.

Settlement in California 200 Race

If there is a death during an event in Death Valley, the National Park Service will be sued. That said, YES, we have a lot of concern here for the future of hiking Mt Whitney, as claimants decide who is responsible for Mt Whitney. I think I'm correct that once a trail is built, someone has responsibility. So, who? The U.S. Forest Service because they encourage hikers with signs on the trail, letting them know this is the correct way to go, by placing camps along the way, by even placing warning signs? Or, is it the California Conservation Corps, who maintain the trail, even shutting it down for a few days to replace rocks and boulders, to make it safer for hikers? Seriously, who is responsible, while the bigger question is "when will they be sued". Most of you know that there was a settlement for the lighting strike that killed a hiker in 1990. Ski resorts get sued all the time, so why would hiking Mt Whitney be different? Do you believe someone wouldn't sue the Portal Store and Doug for his "encouragement" to hike the trail, for not handing out warnings to every person who comes into his store, letting them know how dangerous the hike can be? Could and would someone sue him for writing his book, selling t-shirts on how you can do the Big One in One Day? Excited beginners ask him questions every hiking day, and should he be careful how he answers? How about this site, or the Portal Store site? Should warnings be written in large red letters, and should these sites tell people not to hike as they don't want any liability at all. Am I exaggerating? Of course I am a bit, but that's today, what about tomorrow? This is SCARY stuff, and people who don't take "personal responsibility" will sue anyone, everyone who has anything to do with hiking on a dangerous mountain.

It's common sense to understand we all take risks when we do anything, hike, ski, dirt bike or even take a bath. Statistics show 6 people die a year in marathons, avalanches kill nearly 30, and mountain biking around 35. Just driving your car is dangerous, with over 40,000 per year killed on our highways. But our society has changed, and many people want to blame, want satisfaction, and in reality want money, whether it's justified or not. This closing of Death Valley is just a start folks, and it will encroach and threaten our activities.

The charter of the national parks has been to preserve -and- provide access. Legal requirements for the "wilderness experience" were stated in the Wilderness Act of 1964. National parks and national forest may contain formally defined (Congressionaly) wilderness areas where the stricter definition applies. In fact, it was an interpretation of the Wilderness Act that stops the Badwater 135 event at the portal instead of the summit of Whitney.

Dale B. Dalrymple

KevinR, I can make a distinction between base jumping in Yosemite and bicycling or running along a roadway. But...

Joe Q's link pretty much explains why DV has stopped the events. I'm not sure when the settlement occurred, but the article is dated just ten days ago. DV's action appears to be a direct consequence.

Wish they would put people like me on those juries. There would be a lot less money awarded.

I read/hear "follow the money" whenever one wants to get to the root of almost any matter. The other explanation of why things are done -- or prohibited in this case -- is "fear of lawsuits", which is just another version of follow the money.

Steve: That's what a lot of people say, until they actually get on a jury and hear a trial-worthy case. The fact is, those ARE people like you on those juries, and they only make awards after hearing all the facts and being instructed by a judge in all the law. And after hearing the strongest possible arguments against the awards. Who do you think has more money to present their case: the insurance company defending or injured individuals and their lawyers working on contingencies? Its not even close.

The whole story, which is what the jury hears is very different from what makes a good news report.

A right to a pristine environment, eh. Let's see, that would mean the road net needs to go, all along with all structures; such as, Scotty's Castle and the Charcoal Kilns and then there is the golf course. How's about we fill in all the mines, while we are at it. Then there is the issue of signage. Where in a pristine environment is there room for directional signage?

The parks and forests are balancing acts be environment and usage. If you don't have enough people using our parks for variety of activities, the level of funding that exists today is libel to be decreased.

BTW, where does this right exist? What clause or amendment to our Constitution?

Why do all these things need to be "organized?"

If they want to race, just go there, meet and do it. That's what the Great Divide mountain bike race is like: they race each other, don't need no stinking organization to make sure the sponsor dollars come in and all that other BS. Honor system. Nothing to win, nothing to organize, nothing to get a permit for. It's just that simple, but we all know they do it for reasons other than the honor system.

Darn, this was the year I was going to do that Badwater to Whitney run. My only chance, gone.

Seriously, I think the NPS will have to do a decent official study to cover their butts in case anything ever happens. Some better safety logistics is probably overdue anyway. I don't understand why they have to halt everything in the mean time, but I guess that BLM lawsuit spooked them.

I'm breaking from the majority opinion on this one, I think these races will be back. Hopefully run a little better and probably more expensive.

I have zero problem permit fees reflecting costs to the park.

I'm not one of those who says I paid my tax dollars, I demand...

We were in DV a few years ago for the ranger-led Paleontology hike. There was a concurrent bicycle ride. Traffic on Badwater Road both to and from the hike start was a mess. The road has many blind curves where it is impossible to pass without pulling into the oncoming lane. Some riders were two abreast making matters worse. I now plan our DV trips by checking bike ride schedules and avoiding them. I applaud park efforts to restrict these events. By the way, California has a new law requiring three feet of clearance when passing a bicycle. Since the paved roads in DV belong to the state, maybe that law had something to do with the park's decision.

RK, do you know if the '3 feet of clearance' requirement applies to runners?

It applies only to bicycles. I assume that runners not part of a permitted event would be treated legally as pedestrians.

Behold the new and improved 2014 edition of the Badwater 135, the world's toughest foot race!

Oh no, there goes my excuse. Ah, I'm busy that weekend anyway...

Ultra runners frustrated by Badwater race's move away from Death Valley

From the LA Times

Aha! It's the old, "new Superintendent making a bad decision against popular opinion and sticking with it" strategy. Where have we seen that before? Hint (hot springs and wag bags).

From an engineering perspective, doing the traffic study DURING an actual event would give the best data you could possible get.

Is there a New Jersey politics connection to this story?

I was curious if Envirosports, who annually stages a couple running races in Death Valley (Trail run through Titus Canyon, and out and back road race from Furnace Creek)was affected by the Death Valley ban. Apparently not since the 2014 Titus Canyon run was held in December and the road race is scheduled January 31, 2015.

Does anyone know what the actual status of the ban is, only Badwater?

thanks

Paul

cyclists are more and more doing that, even while not in races. Civil disobedience as far as I am concerned. Either that, or blatant safety-stupidity. Actually both.

nothing wrong with two abreast. Legal in most states. I looked for CA regulations and found this:

"California has taken an arguably novel approach to this issue. Its state code says this about two abreast vs. single file riding: Nothing. The California vehicle code does not address the matter at all. "

so, 3 or 4 abreast more or less is legal in Death Valley. If it is smart, well, probably not, given that most people in this country believe that the more metal and steel they operate, the more rights they have on the road.