Mt Whitney Zone Forums General Discussion Half Dome Permits

Steve C
thats a pretty scary picture of the lines on the cables. As most of you know its like a 5.11 something without the cables and is very dangerous rock for such crowds. Cutting the number of people there would be a good thing. HOWEVER having a permit system will not make the rock less steep nor less dangerous nor will it force the people going up there with one 16 ounce bottle of water to either be more careful or more thoughtful about planning what is a long arduous trip for a day hike. As in peak bagging, some people will summit "if it kills me", and strangely enough, most people make it back alive, though wiser. I wonder how this affects people riding up on horse back. Do they still allow that? Those are the people that I wouldn't want to share the cables with, but then we can't deny access to people incapable of hiking what 22 miles? with a mile of elevation gain, in one day, and back, now can we? Well do they require a permit, or does it come with the fees for the ride and are the number of horseback riders added to or subtracted from the 400? Should I have read up more before posting?
Jim

Hey, Jim - Welcome to the message board!

With or without the cables, "5.11 something" would be vertical (90-degree slope), and Half Dome is nowhere near vertical (a ~50-degree slope at one brief steepest point). The biggest danger, in my opinion, besides overcrowding (or actually, because of it) is the fact that the long-time "cow path" on the granite between the two cables has been worn so smooth that now it's slippery even when dry.

Unless I totally misunderstood your point, even if horses were allowed on the trails in the area (other than stock animals), I can't see that the new permit situation would have any effect on them at all, since horses won't be doing Half Dome, since the permits are only for the sub-dome and the cables, which horses clearly are incapable of doing. (Can you just picture a horse trying to do the cables??? That would be just about like a salmon trying to swim up Yosemite Falls...!).

The Half Dome round trip from Happy Isles is approximately 16+ miles. The elevation gain from Happy Isles to the summit is between 4,800-4,900 feet -- a mile is 5,280 feet.

CaT

CaT said "With or without the cables, "5.11 something" would be vertical (90-degree slope), and Half Dome is nowhere near vertical (a ~50-degree slope at one brief steepest point)."

CaT will all due respect, have you ever climbed in Yosemite? There are many 5.11 climbs on the Apron with 50 degree slope. I have actually read somewhere that the rock at the cables IS 5.11 and the rangers who used to put the cables up and take them down annually had to be very good climbers. I understand they just leave em up now.
It doesn't take steepness on glaciated smooth rock to make for danger or difficulty, otherwise people would be climbing up there rather than using the cables.
The horses took people to a point near the base of the cables so the rider could climb the cables, not the horses.

I have been up there when no one was on the cables, for good reason, the girl I was with had her hair standing straight out from her head from static from lightning, so we stopped at the base of the cables. The cables themselves are very dangerous because induction from even distant lightning can generate very high voltage.
Jim

The stanchions and 2X4s are moved to an iceslide safe location but the cables themselves are left in place.

Jim, that's not my picture, just linked to it from another site.

I've been up that way, though, when it was about that crowded. But I just use the outside of the cables -- no waiting for that. The outside had way better traction anyway. But I guess it won't be crowded like that any more.

I've also climbed when the cables were "down". They're still there, just lying on the rock. It's a little tougher on the back, since you have to lift the cable off the rock, and it becomes a bit heavy. But you get way better traction.

And yes, CaT has climbed in Yosemite, at least the Half Dome cables:   Of cameras and granite   Enjoy the read.

Steve, I'm guessing that when Jim asks if I have climbed in Yosemite, he means technical rock climbing, to which the answer is no. (The rest of what follows is for Jim).

I don't consider the HD cables a technical rock climb, although I'm sure it could be done as such, if desired. I'm stuck in Ohio, but do have 3 years of indoor wall climbing experience, and one short outdoor rock climb in Alaska. My comment on 5.11 not being vertical comes from what my climbing mentor told me regarding our most difficult climbing wall (which is completely vertical, and then some) -- namely, that if that climb were done outdoors on rock, it would be rated a 5.9. My logical assumption, based on that comment, is that anything rated higher than a 5.9 would likewise be vertical.

Since the a, b, c, d subdivisions of the YDS don't even kick in until 5.10, it's fair to say that those kinds of subdivisions were created to differentiate between difficult climbs and really difficult climbs within each decimal point on the scale. That kind of technical differentiation doesn't exist on anything other than vertical or near-vertical climbs precisely because the need for such differentiation is not needed at the easier levels of climbing (i.e., easier Class 5). Since the YDS only goes up to 5.15b (as of 2008), it's also a reasonable deduction that 5.11, being not hugely lower than 5.15, would also be vertical.

But clearly you have the outdoor climbing experience, so if you say the cable section is 5.11, then I'll have to reconsider my opinion and do some more homework. However, as a step in that direction, I have to ask, if Snake Dike, which ascends the steeper side of Half Dome, is only rated a 5.7, then how can the less steep cable section on the east side of HD be rated a 5.11?

Also, given the descriptions of Class 4 through 5.15 listed separately below, I'm finding it a real stretch to put the cable section of HD anywhere in the 5.10-5.14 section listed below (or even in the Class 5 section at all, to be honest). I've done HD twice (and would have done it many more times if I lived conveniently close -- like Steve), and at my current comfort level, as long as I were wearing my rock climbing shoes, I would personally feel comfortable "climbing" just outside the cables without the benefit of a rope (in good weather, of course). It's not likely I would feel the same way on a true class 5 climb, esp. with similar exposure.


CaT

I think Jimshaw meant it was 5.11 withOUT the cables -- climbing that section without ever touching the cables.

CaT's technical climbing levels quote doesn't mention the use of technical gear, but I would think all but the craziest rock climbers would not attempt something like the cables section without a significant amount of protection.

Hi Steve C
Hi CaT
You're both spot on. I'm new to this group and I'm trying to calibrate my posts and understand what you guys mean. I remember that this is an official peak bagging group, and technical rock climbers rarely continue to the peak after completing a route. Yes I am a traditional Yosemite climber. While the total lack of places to put pro on a slope does not make it a more technically difficult, it does rate an "X" for the route, meaning a fall probably ill be fatal, but the difficulty comes from absolutely smooth rock. Even 1/16th inch bumps are climbable, but when its smooth and polished even climbing shoes don't stick and there simply are NO handholds. On an "X" route this is a real pucker factor.

Actually I consider it kind of crazy to climb the cables without some way to fasten to them and considering that they're steel and continuous from top to bottom, I think the only way to protect the climb would be with a prussic of maybe 6mm rope and hope that it sticks to the corrosion on the cables. I would find that way scary. I am impressed with your courage. I wouldn't do that.

Indoor climbing walls of course have small pieces of plastic screwed to them to hold onto, imagine trying to climb the plywood walls WITHOUT the handholds. You can imagine that the slope would have to be much less, and this is the reality of glaciated granite. Some places its polished literally as smooth as a granite tombstone, which is a good euphemism because if you should get onto it, you're gonna take an air ride. One thing about the trade routes in Yosemite is that few are verticle so you rarely fall straight down, instead you slide or roll and there is rarely much of a yank on the rope, its not even like gym climbing.

I'm looking at my Yosemite guide book. Snake Dike as you may know was a 5.7 put up by 5.11 climbers so they only placed bolts at the belay points a rope length apart because to them it was a stroll in the park. It has an "R" rating meaning "runout" meaning little pro for a long ways. It's also rated with three stars and 5.7 quote" there are long runouts but the climb is on relatively easy rock". Most of the other climbs on that side are 5.9 or greater, theres a 5.10b and a 5.11+, so the snake dike route is special in the ease of the rock chosen, but the rock around it is much harder in general. Any 5.9 climb in Yosemite Valley was considered to be the maximum a human could climb before the standars and techniques improved. Someone who climbs 5.11 in a gym would be way stressed on Yosemite 5.9, besides needing the skills to protect it, AND climbing draging a 10 to 12 pound rope and carrying a rack weighing 12-16 pounds. Try climbing in the gym someday with a 25 pound pack. Seriously try it, its an eyeopener.

Well happy trails to you all.
Jim Shaw

Last time I was up there ('89 or 90) there was a group of teenagers who walked down the slope right side of the cables, free from the cables, no ropes, tennis shoes. I figured they were insane, but I guess they wanted to impress some girls. They made it down. Don't think you would be able to do that on anything that's 5.11, or Dean Potter was one of those kids...

Fresno Bee had this article last week.

The full 110 page report (pdf) that lead to the new rules is here. You can look at it just for the pictures, if you like.
Warning: May not be suitable for all readers due to Statistics content. File size is over 6Mb. Do not attempt with a dial-up connection.

Steve & I are wearing red dots.

Agree. I've seen both teens with tennis shoes as well as rock climbers (having just climbed Snake Dike and beginning their hike back down to Happy Isles) walk down the HD cable section -- both outside the cables, the teens with tennis shoes, the climbers with their climbing shoes.

CaT

PS - I'm going to be off the MB for a day or so, but will plug back into this thread at that time.

CaT
I just found a reference that the cbles route without the cables is rated 5.4. My mistake, but if so, why don't people just climb the rock? Seems like it might be faster on a crowded day.
Jim

The lack of decent hand holds probably plays into it's rating.

If you have automatic image resizing turned off then look at this shot and think of it with no people or cables.

I did find the rock very slick, I got caught in a traffic jam and I couldn't stand in one location without my shoes slowly sliding down.

I'd really love to watch peoples reaction as some hikers walk down way outside of the cables, I went down outside of them but while using the cable and allot of people were freaking out just because of that, Half Dome is definitely a place timid people go, just go and sit with your feet over the cliff and listen to the voices from behind saying your completely crazy lol

Jim,

Thanks. I'm sure it would be faster on a crowded day. But I'm guessing that more people don't climb the outside of the cable section because it's way out of their comfort zone (consider how many people freeze up even when using the cables) -- many, if not most people who do the cables probably have zero climbing experience (and some probably have little hiking experience), which would put such a climb beyond what they could or should be doing.

RP - Just looked at that picture (nice photo angle, by the way). I can see all kinds of hand and footholds going up the left (south) side of the cables. It would be kind-of a zig-zag route, though, and would take you out and away from the cables most of the time. See your picture with my red route line added here (you will need to scroll around to the left of the cables to see the whole picture, since it is in its "original" size, to better see the route details).

CaT

CaT, are you saying they were NOT holding the cables? Or were they just on the south side of the cables but hanging on?

Fishmonger's description of those guys walking down without holding on... gives me the willies!

Not holding the cables, although probably keeping them close at hand, just in case.

Your right CaT about people freezing up on the cables, while I climbed a girl behind me was crying and I had to keep telling her not to panic, she actually made it to the top though.

Your out line of the route makes me want to go climb it lol

I wouldn't go down without holding the cables because it was just too much fun! I ran backwards repel style and was down in less than 10 minutes, that experience was what makes me want to go do it again.

I was part of a rescue of a climber with a broken foot in Tuolumne meadows. The guy was about 600 feet up on terrain about 5.4 and probably a lot like the terrain near the cables. I just climbed up it walking erect in my climbing shoes. The guys partner and I got on either side of him and walked him down facing away from the rock. He hopped so we had 5 feet on the rock. It wasn't back but we were all experienced friction climbers. A ranger rescue team met us at eh bottom of the technical rock.

At 5.4 I could probably just walk up and down without the cables, I thought it was a lot more severe there. Tennis shoes - you would "butter", that is there would be no stopping or turning around.
Jim

I think the route may HAVE been 5.4, but is no longer. If you look at the photo, there is a clearly visible whitish patina surrounding the cables....which is polished rock. If you look to the outside of that, you see typical Yos granite, with the great friction seen with that rock. No more, where the cables go!

You mean like this?