Mt Whitney Zone Forums General Discussion Mountaineers Route work project

Over the years I've occasionally volunteered to take part in trail maintenance of the AT here in Georgia, as well as some of the other trails that spider-web the Blue Ridge mountains in the northern part of the state. Not real often, mind you, but after every few hundred miles I begin to feel guilty about excessively using this masterpiece of a trail that others have broken their backs to maintain, so I volunteer for a day or two. Most of the work is organized and coordinated through the Georgia chapter of the ATC (Appalachian Trail Conference). I've never been asked to pay for the privelege of working a trail. I've had to supply my own tools at times, and BYO food/beverage, but it's generally a pretty straightforward effort. In fact, I can't recall ever seeing an AT or other eastern trail project that had a fee attached in addition to the volunteer effort - at least nothing more than maybe $15-20 a head for lunch and possibly group transportation from point A to point B.

The AT being the AT - the granddaddy of all big American trails, and an iconic national treasure - I would assume all maintenance work has to dance to the tune of as much (or more) regulatory red tape as any trail in the country. From an apple-to-apple perspective, I don't see the financial disparity. Below is a link to one of the more referenced websites for AT volunteer work - is there something that takes place in the Sierra that is dramatically different than here, or elsewhere in the country, that drives this "fee", or is it simply a matter of knowing your audience?

http://www.trailquest.net/trailmaint.html

It might be good to defer to Ken, George and other experts on this, but I'll give you a general impression, based upon lifelong exposure to the eastern forests and more recently the west.

The western forests are much more controlled and better managed. So, for example, trail work is managed down to the types of tools that may be used, the types of plants that might be transplanted, how and where check dams are to be built, etc.

I don't think that is so in the eastern forests, where local politics have had a much greater impact over a longer period ot time.

gregf -

I think you're making too broad a conclusion of the eastern forests based upon your experience with the Allegheny National Forest, which for your description, seems like a disaster. While I've not been to that one, I've been to many other Federal and state-administered forest in the east. On the whole, I don't see much difference in terms of management. There are regional differences in how wilderness regs are administered, however, which seem to reflect traditional regional uses for land. For example - one would never see cattle grazing in designated wilderness areas in the east, but is not uncommon in the west. The same is true of lumbering - while not common in my observation on either coast, I have seen lumbering occuring in designated wilderness in the Gifford Pinchot NF of Washington state.

The most stringent application of wilderness "ethics" in my experience is not in a nationally-managed forest. Rather, top honors in that category IMHO goes to Baxter SP in Maine.

Hi KevinR - I removed my rant about the Allegheny National Forest, probably about the time you posted a response. Good to hear your input, however. Maybe what happened there isn't widespread.

I want my grand kids to appreciate these wonderful places - I find it hard to check my emotions on this topic.

In this case a 275 dollar fee may be a bit much, you may be paying to work in an awesome location but with no pack support at spike camp it sounds like your going to be eating typical trail food, the crews I have been on had all the beer, wine, soda and good food you could want, never had I eaten so well in the back country, in that case I would probably be willing to pay 275 dollars to go on a crew.

One upside though is the fee may bring you more serious people, I have heard stories of people on trail crews that were worthless, even heard of a guy that was going to hike 20 miles to a lake after work because he just had to have a bath, he got lost and had to be rescued.

Thanks for the input guys. Kinda confirms my thinking that there's just not a lot of difference in the actual maintenance that would push the imbedded cost from zero to $300 or $400 from one coast to another.

Like I said - knowing your audience. The airport information in the announcement is a big giveaway to me about the target market for this opportunity. I have no doubt it'll be a full trail crew, with everyone in attendance overjoyed to pay the $275 to work the MR. And that's fine by me - it's capitalism at work, no matter how you slice it or dice it, and whatever the market will bear is fair game.

I just won't be rushing to get my app in this time around. Nor am I planning to sell all my worldly possessions, give it to a charismatic cult leader, and then happily suicide before the aliens arrive. Different strokes and all that. It would be a really boring world if everyone was the same, right?

I'm with you Rogue - hard work, good times, get dirty. That's enough for me.

R-Photonic:

I thought the food was good on the last Whitney outing - hot meals, big stove stuff - but some of the other more seasoned vets (projects all over the country) felt is was less-than-average compared with other trips.

There was plenty of good drinks but much of it was supplied by the individuals. The vets said on other trips it was gratis. The FS handled the money (I believe) so maybe that's why it worked that way.

You are right about the group - extremely hard working people. No one was auditing the ledger sheet to see whether they were getting their money's worth. As I recall there were about a dozen people and I think I was the only private sector guy. All the rest were non-profits, ranging from university researchers, government workers, teachers, etc. Not a single laggard and all very interesting people.

Normally these trips fill up in a matter of days - not so this time. Maybe everyone is pulling back.

gregf wrote:
> I thought the food was good on the last Whitney outing

Greg, on which trail was that? Was it pack-train supplied?

Steve - it was a Main Trail event, no pack animals. We stayed at the ranger camp above Big Horn Park - there was a full event-style tent there (w/ a wood floor, as I recall) and two big stoves. Everyone slept in their own tents - there was room in the big tent (for ~4-5 people) but no mosquito screens.

We hauled up a lot of stuff from the portal in 2 trips. The first night was at the portal and the first full day was hauling stuff to BHP. The second day we broke camp, hauled up the rest of the stuff and started the project at BHP. After that rangers and others were always going back and forth between there and the portal so it wasn't a big problem getting tools, gear and food up there. Great accommodations, overall. There was talk about moving to Trail Camp for additional work but we just did that as a day hike. That would have been a bit more rustic.

I think we can all agree, this isn't a car-camp deal.

On the last day all but a few decided on a summit. Everyone made it under some tricky snow / ice conditions.

I'm curious why the AHS trip is not filling up. As mentioned earlier, in the past it was booked in days. I've emailed some of the vets to see if they were disappointed in the food, or anything else. A lot of these people had 10+ of these trips in their portfolios...all over the continent. That feedback might be valuable. A case can be made that in general, charitable donation and / or work is stupid at worst or irrational at best. My guess is that's not the calculus of people like these. I'll let you know what they say.

I'm coming into the conversation a little late, but I'll say that I've done trips with both the groups mentioned here.

I am trained as a Group Leader with AHS, although I've not had the chance to do that. I did a trip with them into the Cottonwood area for a week, up the South fork trail, and worked the trail from Long Lake to NAP, and from South Fork Lake #1 to Cirque Lake. My experience was excellent. They had very experienced and skilled leaders(one was the Wilderness Manager for Whitney--you want to affect policy, this is the guy to spend a week with!), the food was amazing (packer supported trip), the participants were fun. I believe that I was the only person from California, and a number of people were veterans of this group. They clearly enjoyed this as a vacation, and liked that there was a organizing entity that took care of the details, that they could depend upon. I think that is the key, that they were from far away, and dependent upon others to make their vacation work.

I am also a Crew Leader, and trail skills instructor for the High Sierra Volunteer Trail Crew. I've done perhaps 30 trips with them, and am often the crew leader. The makeup of the people is quite different. It is primarily local people. They are doing a job on the Inyo in May, to replace the bridge on the PCT 2 miles north of Kennedy Meadows. I'll be doing several trips with them this year, including week-long backpacking trips in the deep Sierra. I've seen a lot of terrain that I would never have, if not for these trips.

The second group's trips are free, however, they spend enormous amounts of time fundraising, and it is a big effort to support their schedule. I'm sure it is over $100k, and it is limited to really 1 or 2 forests.

This stuff is astonishingly expensive to put together, and I guess it becomes a balance between having paid employees (both do), fundraising, organizing. I'm sure these represent two of several models.

While somewhat differently organized, I'll say that I have enjoyed working with both groups a lot, and think very highly of the work they do.

Not sure I should wade in here, but since SAR was mentioned, I'll give it a shot.

My out-of-pocket SAR expenses are considerable. Outside donations to my team (the CLMRG) go for group things such as radios, stretchers, and gas for SAR operations, but we members are responsible for our own expenses. Those expenses include not just gear and food, but also the costs of training, conditioning, and familiarization climbs. So it can cost money to volunteer. You do it because you are helping out, and because you get satisfaction from doing so.

Every bonafide charitable organization is nonprofit. They have income and they have expenses, and their directors decide how they should operate. To help a charitable organization, sometimes you donate time, like being a docent in a museum. Sometimes you donate money, as to the American Heart Association. And sometimes you donate both, as in SAR and--evidently--some trail maintenance activities.

For the costs associated with my volunteer activities, I'm not paying it to some hiking society. I'm paying it to REI, Albertsons, and Chevron. And, on rare occasions, to the local emergency room. No matter, it's all money out of my pocket.

It doesn't matter if it's an injured person on a cliff or a rundown trail, you get to decide whether you want to play the game. If the cost to you--in time and/or money--is worth the satisfaction you are getting out of it, you do it.

Costs are real. The AHS directors have evidently decided to pass some of it on to the volunteers, rather than suck it up themselves or look for outside donations. If you find that grating, there are plenty of other worthy organizations to devote your charitable energies to.

If viewed in a purely cynical light and based solely upon economics, no one would ever do anything charitable. Bob R. is right, the psychic value is the big driver, and the more of that the better. I live in a world of economics and cynicism and the less of that coming my way, the happier I am.

I marvel at those who would spent time and treasure, year-after-year, to travel all over and do these trail projects ...giving up vacation time and money. More admirable might be the patience and forbearance of the spouses. Maybe some of those folks would do SAR work if they were closer to the mountains, or if they had the abilities to do so. Whatever their motivations, it is something to be celebrated and not cavalierly dismissed, or conveniently rationalized.

The AHS is OK -- I red-lined the Sierra Club membership because it was a bit too granola for me, too big and too disparate. Overall, I like the communications that come from AHS, what they do in Washington, and their focus. The list of stuff I'm supposed to believe is much less with AHS than the Sierra Club. Like Bob said, everyone makes their own decisions on these things. But for what it's worth, I think AHS is a worthy operation and I'm glad Ken had some good things to say about them, too.

Smaller, local groups like Steve's and Friends of the Inyo would probably be better still, so I'm hoping the momentum keeps building there. In that regard, some of the best advice is RoguePhotonic's comment, above. You want quality people on these outings - that's what makes it work.

Guys, my apologies if I came across as cavalier in my comments on this topic. It was not my intent. I have this annoying habit of expanding beyond a target discussion at times, as my wife will enthusiastically attest to.

An individual's participation in charities and community service (two completely separate things to my thinking) is always commendable, particularly as opposed to doing nothing, and I would never, ever, sell short the voluntary efforts or donations of someone who wants to make a difference.

Healthy skepticism (and yes, cynicism at times) for any good-deed organization asking me to open my wallet, I readily admit to. Having been burned - badly, and multiple times - by the various scandals surrounding the United Way over past years, I have learned the hard way to exercise extreme caution when it comes to "donations". For me it's a Pavlovian response, and I promised myself years ago that I would, in the future, only deliver time and money where I can actually see and confirm the beneficial use of my efforts. I don't like approaching good works that way, but we can thank the UW snakepit for that conditioning.

For myself personally, direct children's charities are my passion, specifically the Children's Miracle Network (catastrophically ill children's healthcare) and the Youth Challenge Academies (voluntary lifeskills bootcamps for troubled teens). Coincidentally, my wife and I board an Air Force C-130 early tomorrow morning for a daytrip to Fort Gordon for an annual review and status report of the current YCA classes underway in Georgia. Along with regular visits to the Children's Healthcare of Atlanta hospitals, we can see up close and personal the impact our donations and time have on kids, and for us that brings fulfilment.

Regarding the AHS project that started this thread - after doing some additional research on their website I see that my conclusion about the nature of this particular project versus my past experience was erroneous, and was not a proper apple-to-apple comparison. The AHS has about two dozen of these projects available all over the country in 2010. There is no differentiation between a Whitney project and those in the various locations of the East or elsewhere. They all have the exact same fee structure attached, and are presented as "Volunteer Vacation" opportunities. That changes the perspective for me, and I should have done a little more homework before drawing a bullseye on this particular project. My bad.